The following sets are legal for use in Overextended tournaments:
Invasion Block (Invasion, Planeshift, Apocalypse)
Odyssey Block (Odyssey, Torment, Judgment)
Onslaught Block (Onslaught, Legions, Scourge)
Mirrodin Block (Mirrodin, Darksteel, Fifth Dawn)
Kamigawa Block (Champions of Kamigawa, Betrayers of Kamigawa, Saviors of Kamigawa)
Ravnica Block (Ravnica, Guildpact, Dissension)
Coldsnap
Time Spiral Block (Time Spiral, Planar Chaos, Future Sight)
Lorwyn/Shadowmoor Block (Lorwyn, Morningtide, Shadowmoor, Eventide)
Shards of Alara Block (Shards of Alara, Conflux, Alara Reborn)
Zendikar Block (Zendikar, Worldwake, Rise of the Eldrazi)
Scars of Mirrodin Block (Scars of Mirrodin, Mirrodin Beseiged, New Phyrexia)
Seventh Edition
Eighth Edition
Ninth Edition
Tenth Edition
Magic 2010
Magic 2011
Additionally, the following cards are banned from use in Overextended tournaments. (You may not have them in your maindeck or sideboard.)
Bridge From Below
Disciple of the Vault
Hypergenesis
Mind’s Desire
Narcomoeba
Sensei’s Divining Top
Skullclamp
Sword of the Meek
For discussion and explanation of the cards on the banned list check out the following articles:
Answering Questions: Masques, Modern, and More!
Banned list update occur monthly. The next one will be on August fifth.
Gavin Verhey is a professional Magic player, writer and broadcaster from Seattle, Washington. Mtgoverextended.com is his most recent contribution to the Magic community. You can follow him on Twitter @GavinVerhey, or send him an e-mail at Gavin@mtgoverextended.com. 
Did Dread Return really need to get the axe with Narcomoeba AND Bridge From Below being banned? I mean I hate Dredge more than the next guy (DAMN YOU FELDMAN!) but that seems like a bit of overkill.
As of this posting, the site lacks a form, so I suppose that the conversation will have to start here on these comment boards.
I have been an advocate for this forum since it was first rumored on MTGSalvation (on the Rumor Mill) during Summer of 2010. I have supported it on the Wizards forums, on The Source, and on MTGS itself. I am now taking this support here in a hope to champion this format.
With that all in mind, I think that the single most important place to start is the Banned List. Invasion Block vs. Mercadian Masques vs. Ravnica cutoff? Easy stuff; Invasion is clearly the place to start, both because of the MTGO players and for power and design philosophy reasons. The Banlist, however, is another issue that merits some serious consideration.
First I am going to list the cards that I absolutely agree need to go. Then we will get into the contested ones.
1. Skullclamp (No comment needed)
2. Sword of the Meek (Discourages innovation and has too much power)
3. Mind’s Desire (Broken and unfun)
4. Hypergenesis (Strong, but a bit unfair with Leyline of Sanctity/Chancellor of the Annex and Tangle, etc.)
5. Sensei’s Divining Top (Slows games down, stupid with Counterbalance, goes in every deck that has mana to use at EOT, etc.)
6. Bridge from Below (Arguably the most broken card in all of Dredge, and certainly its most explosive)
7. Disciple of the Vault (Affinity is strong without it, and too explosive with it)
These cards deserve to be banned and stay banned. The others, however, are not so clear cut. I will talk about each of them in order.
1. Aether Vial
There are a lot of reasons to exclude this from the banlist, despite its power. For one, if Legacy is any indicator, not every creature deck runs this. I understand that Overextended is supposed to be its own separate and unique format, but Legacy can be used as a good litmus test of card health. Second, Vial gives certain creature strategies an edge that would otherwise be nudged out of the running. Goblins, more than any other deck, comes to mind. Vial lets them get a little more speed and a little more game in the control matchup. It also lets dedicated aggro decks run against the midrange aggro decks of the format. If midrange aggro gets to keep Tarmogoyf, then faster aggro really needs its Vial.
2. Dread Return
Without Bridge from Below, this card becomes a little less consistent. It certainly becomes slower. That opens up decks that use it, like CephBreakfast and Dredge, to the g2 and g3 mandatory graveyard hate. Return gives these decks a powerful edge, but without Bridge, I do not think it would be insurmountable. Certainly the loss of Bridge means that a countered Dread Return can be a major tempo blowout for the deck saccing 3 of its creatures.
3. Narcomoeba
A lot of Dredge hate on the banlist, and I think in this metagame it would be unwarranted (at least, some if it would be). Narcomoeba is a problem only in that it enables Dread Return, and that it has stupid synergy with Bridges. Its applications with Therapy are not so much “broken” as they are just strong. With Bridge gone, half of its brokenness is gone as well. That means that Dredge becomes a game 1 format boogieman (which is what it basically is in Legacy), and a major slog in games 2 and 3. With other graveyard strategies abounding (ENTOMB is unbanned currently, for gosh sake!), most decks will have their requisite graveyard hate. Combined with hand disruption, early removal on discard outlets, and countermagic like Spell Pierce and Mental Misstep, Dredge will not be so much a force as I think some might fear.
That finishes the cards that I think do not merit a ban. Now I will briefly touch on some cards that I think are absolutely ban-worthy.
1. Dark Depths
Depths + Hexmage is a 2 card combo that goes in any deck running black. Hexmage alone is good vs. aggro and against planeswalkers, so you really aren’t losing much by running him. it gives a lot of decks an easy alternate win condition without too much investment. It also is completely lacking in innovation, and will encourage players to run decks that are basically regurgitated from old Extended and Legacy. You mention that the card needs to be watched, and I think that it would be better to preemptively remove it before it is abused.
2. Umezawa’s Jitte
I do not want to see this with Stoneforge Mystic and Squadron Hawk. Unlike Aether Vial, which only helps certain creature-based strategies, Jitte actually helps all of them. This might be too alarmist, because Jitte has safely existed in Legacy for some time. But in a newer metagame without some of the Legacy “glue staples” that hold the format together (LED for fast combo, FoW for countermagic, Swords for creature removal, etc.) Jitte might pull out too much ahead.
All in all, I like the banlist and the effort that went into it and the rest of the site. I look forward to working and discussing here about the format, its evolution, and its implementation.
-ktkenshinx-
I don’t think jitte needs to be banned. Last extended season before the format reduction I played mostly zoo in ptqs, and both never remotely considered running it. Even more significantly I remember multiple situations in the zoo mirror where the opponent would have jitte and I wouldn’t even think about killing it, even with multiple bant charms in hand. I’d pretty much just always kill their dudes and watch the equipment turn into a huge tempo sink instead, and even if they did manage to get it active (which was rare) almost every dude in my deck had a butt of 3 or more, greatly decreasing its power.
If jitte isn’t a dominating force in an aggressive creature mirror anymore, it’s not a banworthy card. It is, however, an important sideboard card in creature heavy decks vs (among other things) elves and red decks, and it goes a long way towards making utility-creature based aggro and aggro-control viable. Is it really powerful? Absolutely. But there’s no way I’d consider banning it.
It seems a bit silly to just state that you dont like the way dredge plays, and therefore it should banned out of the format. Dredge has been a part of extended and Legacy for years without being degenerate, so I dont see why it should be attacked such that it isnt even close to playable. Banning Breakthrough and Cephalid Coliseum would force the deck to try a different tact from the Legacy build, as the deck then needs to run multiple 2 cost spells, increasing the land count, probably running fetches+Bloodghast etc… At the very least Dread Return and Narcomoeba should not be banned. Without bridge the deck loses most of its explosivness and just becomes a reanimator-free dude deck.
dark depths not banned? seems like a glaring oversight if you are removing all the other overpowered combos
Poor narcomoeba. . . without dread return and bridge from below, who’s he hurting? Free 1/1s at the sake of decking yourself doesn’t seem all that broken.
At this point I think im just going to see how this “modern” format plays out. I may be biased because I got into the game with Mirrodin, so it seems like a perfect place to start an eternal format.
Agree with ktkenshinx, there is no reason to ban Vial… And like some else said, Dredge has existed in extended without any problem…
I already put my magnum opus on the other page as I didn’t know there were multiple sections to comment. In any case I think almost all the artifacts on the list should be taken off as there are a plethora of answers for them at the 0 and 1 CMC slot. Top is under control in legacy and doesn’t slow down tournaments there so I don’t feel that’s a reasonable excuse anymore. Vial is kept in check as well. As a far as Sword goes, it is in the same boat but it also can be completely removed from the graveyard for free in any color now with surgical extraction or any other 1 mana GY hate card. Faerie macabre does it for free as well. Clamp falls victim to the same issues as the rest. I’m reluctant to say this one can come off because affinity can abuse it like no other deck not mention it going into thopter decks would be insane. Then again that might balance things out. I don’t think with Dredge being kept in check banning of any of its cards are necessary. If it did come to that then only bridge should get the ax since it’s an overwhelming force type of card whereas dread can be countered or itself removed for a blowout turn as stated above. I don’t see entomb as everyone’s go to card since it’s $45 and hard to acquire. Disciple is also easily answered by 0 and 1 CMC answers in the form of Snapback. mental misstep, etc.
There are going to be more powerful and viable combos that legacy will pale in comparison since the threat of Force of Will isn’t there. From week to week you could have 3-5 different aggro/aggro control decks placing with 3-4 completely different combos every week. I actually wish it was MM forward though. A format that isn’t defined by FoW feels like walking onto a new planet. Decks can actually exist since they don’t either have to be FoW decks or be able to play under it.
Koran Johnson: I agree with some of your comments, but not with all of them. Let me address each of your points one at a time.
1. Top
The usage of Top in Legacy did not compare to its usage in Extended and Standard. ANY deck that had 1 mana open at EOT was using Top to dig around their library. Combined with Counterbalance, this made for a dominant strategy that, for the low cost of 8 slots, could go into basically any deck. This really stifles creativity and just leads to a world of midrange countertop aggro and countertop combo and countertop control. In short, this is unhealthy for Overextended, and should not be a danger that we risk.
2. Vial
I totally agree. The card is checked by removal, by discard on the play, and by Mental Misstep. It also gives aggro a fighting chance in an otherwise midrange/combo/control metagame. I fully agree that it should be kept around.
3. Sword
This is a tricky case. It certainly is a winning archetype and it certainly is powerful, but it really does fold to GY hate. I think the problem with it is that a deck that uses Sword/Foundry does not itself fold to GY hate. Dredge does, so dredge cards can stick around; once G2 and G3 roll around, dredge is in deep trouble. But SotM decks do not really have that problem. They can just play around the GY hate. If their sword/foundry combo gets hurt, who cares? They have plenty of other options.
Also, this combo really lends itself to ANY deck that just wants to splash U/B/W for a combo engine and only 8 slots. This is generally unhealthy for formats .
4. Clamp
Clamp really, really needs to stay on the banlist. Even if it is theoretically kept in check, it leads to a metagame where every deck using creatures is also using Clamp. That leads to maindeck artifact hate. That leads to a world similar to the ugly Mirrodin standard/extended one of 2004 and 2005. Clamp is a disgusting card that needs to stay away, even if it has some theoretical answers. To an extent, you acknowledge these dangers. I just want to restate them and make them clear.
Also, on a side note, the Dredge ban hammer is not healthy for this format. I would happily write a longer argument about it, but here is the short version.
a. It makes us look scared and ignorant of Dredge. We put 3 slots into banning one deck, and people can say “wow, you really don’t know how that deck works? Why do you whine and moan so much about dredge?” This is not good for a budding format.
b. It nerfs other GY strategies (DR and Narco are integral to decks like CephBreakfast for example).
For these reasons alone, at least one of the three, but probably two, should be removed from the banlist. I think that Narco and DR should go, but that is just my opinion.
-ktkenshinx-
1. I remember top situation and the climate at the time. You have to take into account that there are many people who would get into this format that want nothing to do with those control type strategies. Furthermore, as stated before it is easily defeated and players have learned to play against and with it more efficiently. So, I don’t foresee a return to that problem.
2. Agreed.
3. While I understand your reluctance about the sword you did agree with me that it can be dealt with fairly easily. Also, the situation that you eluded to is happening in standard right now. Many decks having access to the combo is no different than Stoneforge. lol It literally has been packed into almost every archtype at this point with Starcity’s posting of the top 16 of this past weekend. The thing is I don’t really have a problem with this with a newer much larger format because there will be many answers and it gives people a fighting chance early on with cards they know and are comfortable with. Besides, people like Gavin, the rest of the higher level writers, and players out there are the ones likely to build something not seen before. In the beginning average players will not show up with something off the wall. They will take known quantities and maybe change a card here or there. Its not even that powerful in legacy and you’d be adding many more blocks than when it dominated.
4. I remember clamp and I know how bad it can be but I just can’t see it getting out of control that badly. I mean we are all supposing but using relevant points. My thing is that if this is supposed to be an experiment why not open the parameters to see what happens. It’s not like we have anything to lose only much to gain. It really ends up broken somehow it won’t take long to figure out and to clamp it off. Pun intended
a. The dredge bans are overreactive and unnecessary just like the reserve list. See what I did there?? Something that you learn if you study professional security is that humans tend to react more harshly directly after and a bad situation. They overreact so badly that laws, policies, and treatment of others don’t agree with the reality. This is what happens with magic bans. More to the point, many who heard or were even remotely playing between Affinity, Dredge, Mind’s Desire, and Thopter/sword will be affected by this. The initial domination of these strategies leave an indelible mark on the magic psyche that when recalled makes players recoil. <btw an awesome card
Jitte is very easily controlled by playing it yourself, just countering it, or destroying it. It would like being scared of Platinum angel. The effect is powerful but it has to stay on the board and be useful.
Just thought about this Dragonstorm will be back. Man there are some nasty dragons in all these blocks.
I’m in agreement with some of the comments and parts of the banned list.
Dark Depths should be banned pre-emptively, 2 card combo. Legacy has a lot more ways of dealing with the combo so it’s never been a problem there, but modern has effectively half of that and this deck was still consistent in the old extended should show its power, and it would likely return.
Dread Return and Narcomoeba should not be banned. Banning bridges from dredge will keep it more in check from exploding. If the deck is good but not degenerate and broken, some people should be able to play it. We do have crypt, relic, and bog in modern anyway for mass gy hate.
Aether Vial can be taken off and kept at a “watch” – it could really go either way. Legacy folk and goblins can almost be run the same way with the current legal sets. Both lose some major cards in their builds, but have enough other friends to surround their starting team lineups too, therefore keeping vial will just keep the same decks alive.
Disciple – agree on the ban, but wondering if it’s enough. Ravager should at least be watched as well. With the two banned affinity loses a lot of power and would be tier 2 at best, but with affinity only losing disciple i can already brew some variants that will be consistent.
I was mad modern had the artifact lands banned, I love artifact builds. My first decks were the premade artifact decks that had artifact lands from mrrodin. Ban disciple or arcbound ravager, not artifact lands.
Am I the only one worried about Jace TMS? He may have never been banned before, but he has to be considered.
And Skullclamp MUST be banned. Imagine it in Caw-blade.
PS- Gavin I love this format. I started playing in Tempest, left for a while, and really began in Invasion. My first prerelease was Apocalypse. I’ve been watching the SCG Legacy events, and feel unable to join without duals or forces, so this would be incredible. Hope you’re successful!
I’m not an expert on Dredge, but isn’t banning Bridge from Below enough to make it a lot worse already? Maybe ban Narcomoeba’s as well, as that doesn’t really hurt anyone, but Dread Return seems like a fun card that’s not broken without the other two.
Who is in control of this banned list? As it seems right now it’s a very personal list saying “I don’t like this card/deck, let’s ban it.” while at the same time saying “I don’t care if it should be banned, I like it so it’s not on the list.”
Love the format idea and all, but all this rampant hate on the combo pillar is starting to really get to me. Some people don’t like countering spells and turning dudes sideways all day long Verhey. If you want to make this format thrive, then leave your personal bias at the door. And for the record “Dredge” isn’t a dirty word, if people want to play a glass cannon deck that gets hated out easier than any other, then so be it I say.
I don’t get the banning of all 3 dredge pieces.
Bridge From Below I get that it makes sense.
But Narcomoeba and Dread Return to???
Ok so maybe you don’t want Cephilid Breakfast either so ban Narcomoeba or Dread Return.
but both???
This is a pretty poorly thought out ban list. I don’t even play dredge but I cannot conceive of any possible reason for Dread Return to be banned with Narcomoeba AND Bridge from Below also banned. It’s excessive and unnecessary, and suggests a poor understanding of the deck archetype. If you ban anything, just ban Bridge from Below.
AEther Vial should also not be banned. There are about five billion forms of hate for it, including the new ones from New Phyrexia.
I feel like AEther Vial, and Narcomoeba or Dread Return can safely come off the banned list.
-Vial is balanced by Mental Misstep and isn’t very good without tribal synergy, and without a good deck to put it in, Vial seems just fine.
-Dread Return and Narcomoeba are only broken with each other and Bridge. If both come off without Bridge, it fuels Breakfast decks, which are at least more interactive than Dredge, but are probably just too good for this format.
Something to address with Dark Depths. This combo isn’t that good on its own. Yes, it’s good enough to make Top 8 of a Pro Tour, but Zoo is also just as good. Depths needs to be paired with both controlling elements and a more stable combo (like Thopter/Sword) in order to be format-dominating. One could argue that said combo is Psychatog, but at that point you can just make a pure Psychatog deck and kill people just as efficiently.
Also, I think that Tendrils of Agony may have to be banned. Yes, the format doesn’t contain Dark Ritual. But it does have Heartbeat of Spring, it does have Mirari’s Wake, and it still has Cabal Ritual. Without Dark Ritual, black storm decks suffer a massive decrease in power. Granted, one could argue that Brain Freeze is just as much of a concern because it’s easier to cast and build storm for, so take this with a grain of salt.
Also, not to sell it short, but Earthcraft should probably get the axe because no one wants to deal with the squirrel deck.
I’m a little surprised Dark Depths is not banned?
I’d be much more cofortable supporting a format if there was a group in charge of the banned list opposed to one person.
Jake Bladorn is definitely not alone in his worry that “only 1″ person controls the banlist at this point. I have been all over the major magic forums advocating for Overextended, and a lot of people are annoyed about the current state of the banlist. In fact, I would argue that it is the number one most contentious issue in the new format right now. Many of them are probably too polite, or too cowardly, to post their reservations on this site (and “Reservations” is a light word to describe the depth of their annoyance in many cases), but the sentiment is definitely out there.
Based off of posts on this site alone, it looks like the banlist needs some reworking. When you add the posts on other sites, it becomes an inescapable fact that the banlist must be fixed.
Here are the big problems:
1. THE DREDGE BANHAMMER
This really turns players off to the format. It makes us look a) unreasonably afraid of Dredge, b) unreasonably afraid of Combo, and c) ignorant of dredge, combo, and graveyard archetypes in general. For example, people are baffled why we would have a triple banhammer aimed at dredge, but not ban a single card in Faeries. Or why dredge has 3 staples get the axe, but Dark Depths is still alive and kicking.
I fully agree that Dredge needs to have something banned to slow it down. Based off of Dredge performance in the past, that card really needs to be Bridge from Below. It is the card that most feels like cheating, and it is the card that is arguably most responsible for its explosiveness and power. Also, it really only hurts Dredge. Narco and DR are awesome cards that other decks can and do use. Bridge is a dredge-only monster.
2. AETHER VIAL (Unban!)
A lot of players believe, with good and well-argued reason, that Vial is a necessary enabler for certain fast, creature-based aggro decks. Without Vial, these decks are going to fold to the midrange aggro decks for lack of speed and lack of counter-proofing and pressure. You really can’t keep Tarmogoyf unbanned and then get rid of weenies’ number one way to swarm over the 5/6 goyf. Similarly, Vial is direly needed in the aggro/combo matchup, otherwise the threats just don’t come down fast enough. Vial also helps creature-based combo decks, which are notoriously fragile as it is. In none of these cases does it create a degenerate deck that warps the format. Heck, even Affinity, one of the original abusers of this card, has abandoned vial in many of its modern incarnations.
3. DARK DEPTHS (Ban!)
As has been said before, Depths is not too big of a problem on its own. It’s a scary dude, but not that bad. Counterspells can stop the Hexmage (so can Thoughtseize/Inquisition/Despise, all of which will see play). Path to Exile and bounce can stop the Marit Lage.
The big problem with the Depths combo is that at only 8 cards, it can go in basically any deck. Hexmage on his own isn’t even a bad addition, given that he kills walkers, holds back aggro, and can wield any number of scary equipment cards with great skill. It’s just a secondary win condition that can get grafted in to any preexisting strategy. This makes it a problem. It is especially problematic in a control base, and while CounterTop will thankfully not exist, it is still something to worry about.
Also, the combo’s existence stifles innovation. With no wasteland to stop Depths, it would be a top pick for pros to add to their decks. Maybe it won’t pan out to be so bad, but if it does, the format will lose credibility. The idea is to START with the healthiest format possible. Depths staying unbanned is not a good means to that end.
4. BANLIST TRANSPARENCY
The final point about the banlist is a more general one. There really needs to be some clause, and some body acting on that clause, stating “The banlist is always under review and always changing thanks to the help of these players and the community.” It’s one thing if the DCI makes a banlist and says “here’s the way it is.” It’s another thing entirely in a budding format with minimal support. I do not think that Mr. Verhey is trying to be some kind of Overextended dictator, and I think it is unfair to think of him in that way. But I do see where those thoughts come from. There is an easy solution to this, and that is to encourage participation and actively enable players to make changes to the banlist.
-ktkenshinx-
True, there’s no Wasteland, but there is Ghost Quarter.
I’d say that any two out of Bridge, Moeba and Dread Return should be enough, however I don’t mind as I don’t care about Dredge. What actually bothers me here is that Mind’s Desire is banned even though it was never overpowered in Extended when it was legal. there was always a deck, but that was alwas easily hated out.
I like the rest of the bannings and the format.
I agree with the comments regarding the banning of the three dredge cards. You don’t have to take all three to make dredge unplayable. You can destroy the deck as it is played today by just taking any two of them.
I also question the determining factors used when deciding to ban any card:
1) “This goes in any deck running X” – This is a terrible reason for banning any card. Jace v2.0 goes in any deck running blue, but I only see one other person advocating his removal from the format.
2) “This is a card that’s a cornerstone of Legacy” – You’re basing this on what? The SCG Opens? The European metagame is vastly different than the American metagame so this approach might be a little biased, no? You’ve already removed the “Legacy Lite” feel by stating at Invasion instead of Masques. I don’t know that you have to go too much fuirther with it.
Thanks for taking the first step into making this format a reality.
I’d really like to see the ten Fetchlands banned. With them, mana bases would look just exactly like Legacy ones, +2 damage from time to time. Plus all the shuffling and reshuffling is super annoying.
You could also safely unban Top with them out of the picture.
Regarding Dark Depths and Sword of the Meek:
I used to play Old Extended a lot; I had a Zoo deck and played it endlessly on Magic Online. Thopter Depths was one of the decks I had quite a bit of experience playing against, and I’d like to make one thing clear: the Thopter/Sword combo simply wasn’t very good against me. I routinely won games in which my opponent had both combo pieces in play by simply powering through it. By the time my opponent managed to untap with both combo pieces in play, I’d have several creatures in play and my opponent would be fairly low on life. My opponent would have to spend all his mana making tokens and chump blocking just to stay alive, and I would just keep on drawing more creatures and burn spells. Eventually, I’d either draw an answer to the combo or just kill my opponent outright.
Unlike the Thopter Sword combo, however, the Dark Depths combo was extremely effective against me. Once my opponent had both Vampire Hexmage and Dark Depths in play, I needed a Path to Exile immediately or I would lose. (My build of Zoo ran Tribal Flames instead of Bant Charm.) And the Dark Depths combo tended to win the game one turn earlier than my Zoo deck could, which made racing problematic. It was Dark Depths, not Sword of the Meek, that was the real power card in the deck; adding the Thopter Foundry combo did indeed make the Dark Depths deck better by letting it do a good impression of a U/B control deck, but it was Dark Depths, not Sword of the Meek, that really made the deck what it was.
I think this is a great place to start. While everyone argues over the necessity of certain cards to be banned, I like the banned list as is.
I realize I might be the only person alive that does, but if no one can agree on what needs to be banned, thanks to an abundance of personal prejudice, someone needs to use personal experience to balance out and give this new format a new identity all its own.
We don’t want Dredge to be a boogeyman. We’ve had several different formats where the Bridge variant simply took things over. Also, Legacy is the home for degenerate graveyard decks. If you want to play those, just play Legacy. Dredge-A-Tog was a strong deck in Old Extended years past, and its viability remains intact, so long as you actually devote the time to testing the deck.
As for the banning of Vial, I can agree with the decision. Vial decks are a staple of LEGACY, not this new format. We shouldn’t lump all the random aggro decks that use Vial together, and force them to innovate ways to interact with the faster decks in the format. For example, Merfolk was a legitimate deck in the old Extended format, even with decks like DDT and Zoo running around.
The banned list is in place for more reasons than you think. We want a format that feels unique, unlike any other current format. Sure, you’ll have some decks that feel similar, but not identical. Threshold will actually be a deck, rather than just a pile of cards that Aether Vial has to make viable.
The banned list in its current form gives almost every deck in the format a good fighting chance. Without Counterbalance, more of the Red-less aggro decks can exist. Without turn 2 combo decks, more traditional control decks can exist and perform. Without Aether Vial, a deck like Teachings can still operate, despite being a dog to most of the other decks in the format.
Remember, the goal is to create a format that is unique and fun for everyone. It will be a good investment once you figure out your deck choices. It has to feel different from the other current format, including Legacy, the current style of Extended, and Standard. Otherwise, there’s no reason to bother trying to create such a format in the first place.
I’m a little confused. Is Coldsnap legal or not? You say that Brainstorm isn’t legal in Overextended in the Format FAQ but it was reprinted in Coldsnap. So was Swords to Plowshares, but I’m seeing a lot of Path to Exile in the example decklists.
Brainstorm was printed in mercadian mask, ice age, and 5th.
S2P was printed in Alpha-4th and Ice age.
Neither were printed in coldsnap.
ur the BEST!
I think that to ban bridge from below almost completely invalidates dredge as a viable strategy, if you want to slow dredge down, bad grave-troll or putrid imp, but don’t remove bridge.
Actually, there is a huge reason to create a format that feels like Legacy, but isn’t — the Reserve List. If OverExtended feels like Legacy (albeit a more “fair version” in some cases), I’ll consider it successful.
Just to give everyone a heads up, I have been writing a piece on the banned list (as well as answering a few other questions) and it should be up soon. I want to be as transparent with you guys as possible. A lot of great discussion has happened here, and some of it I agree with. There a I’m on vacation right now, so please be patient, but I’m hoping to have it up either tomorrow or Monday.
Thanks!
You should put a forum up here. Communication through article comments isn’t going to be very useful for most of us. :)
I too am kind of concerned about not including Masques forward as opposed to what is posted here. My thinking behind this is that cards like Dark Ritual, Brainstorm, Lightning Bolt, etc, are part of what defines this game. Everyone speaks of avoiding a “Legacy Lite” environment, but what is wrong with that? For those of us that are tired of Standard (like me) and don’t want to spend $2000+ on dual lands and other Legacy staples, “Legacy Lite” seems perfectly legit.
lightning bolt would be legal
I know, I’m just saying it’s one of the staple cards that people will often claim is overpowered.
I’m sorry but banning cards just because they are in legacy as I stated before is just asinine. The idea that one format has cards similar automatically makes it feel the same is the weakest train of thought that could possibly pushed. There are least 10 different cards right now from previous standard rotations and the current one that are in legacy right now. Are we going to ban Bob, Mental Misstep, Tarmo, Stoneforge Mystic, all the swords, Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek, Vendilion Clique, Coralhelm Commander and the rest of the lorwyn merfolk because they exist in legacy? There are many creatures in the tribal vial decks that will not be in the format that make those decks really go. This will already differentiate them from legacy. Last extended merfolk were not that good to whoever said that.
Bridge is the only card that at this point I can sign off being banned from dredge as anything more than that is just people playing scared. Even then I don’t agree but for the sake of the community I can go along with that. We have the same hate cards as legacy and mind you dredge is one of the cheaper decks. So keep in mind you are taking away options for lower budget players to be able to perform.
Mind’s desire wasn’t even that over powered a few years ago and could be beat. I think it should be a watched card until further notice.I think sword combo is fine since it’s not like there’s enlightened tutor in the format. Plus, there’s plenty of hate and fast vial decks could compete with it.
I think it’s a lot easier to deal with Dark depths than people realize. Ghost Quarter is alive and well not to mention spreading seas and convincing mirage. You can just bounce or remove the token with a million and one different spells that cost 2 or less. If this bothers people so much again I can go along with that but not the foundry and the sword.
I want to be clear that I don’t even have most of the banned cards so it’s not like I’m defending them out of fan-boyism. I just don’t want to end up in a format that is trying so hard to not be Legacy that it invariably shortchanges itself. People are so ready to talk about innovation and how cool the format would be yet it seems many want to take the easy way out to just ban cards instead of trying to beat them. If this moves forward with so many cards being ripped from archetypes constantly, I may just avoid the format and keep trying to save for legacy. This is exactly why WotC will end up making the format Modern which to me is trash. Many people are going to whine and complain about combo this and combo that, Vial this, and Hypergenesis that. Meanwhile, Hypergenesis was barely on the radar at the end of 2010 extended season. The only reason it was banned for the short rotation was because they didn’t want it to be the go to deck since there wasn’t a lot of time to brew new combos and aggro/control decks. That’s not the case with Invasion forward. If this moves forward with so many cards being ripped from archetypes constantly, I may just avoid the format and keep trying to save for legacy since it’s still going to have Bobs and other legacy staples. What’s the fun in playing a format if people play scared all the time.
I largely agree with what Koran Johnson has to say in his above post. Specifically, it is worth repeating his statement about Legacy staples being banned in Overextended. If this is a concern, then as he says, you really need to also ban Goyf/Bob/LOTS O MERFOLK/Mental Misstep/Thoughtseize/etc. because these cards will also find cozy homes in the new format. Of course, no one is suggesting this because it is totally absurd. The same should go for a number of cards that are either on the banlist (Aether Vial) or that would be in Mercadian Masques (Daze, Brainstorm, Dark Ritual). These cards might merit a ban on their own terms, but NOT because they are extant Legacy staples.
I don’t agree with the camp who wants to see Dark Depths remain unbanned. There have been a lot of answers discussed for Depths, but none of them are really a) good solutions or b) common solutions in an Overextended metagame. I am going to address them quickly.
1) Ghost Quarter
Wasteland trades with opponent’s lands, and can blowout an opponent with a low-land opening. Ghost Quarter is like stone raining yourself. The vast majority of decks can easily pack basic lands to search out, and the self-tempo blowout of Quarter is just not worth it. Wasteland is widely played in Legacy. Ghost Quarter is not. Overextended players will not pick up Ghost Quarter to stop Dark Depths, because it really has no other good applications against other decks. It doesn’t affect their mana ramping, but it slows yours down. It is only good against utility lands, but apart from Wasteland, most decks just don’t run a lot of these.
2) Bounce spells
Only blue (and Goblins) realistically has any of these to draw on. That leaves a lot of decks high and dry against the combo. Moreover, a deck using a control shell can easily account for any countermeasures used against their token. The whole argument “X card is ok because there are lots of ways to destroy it” is a terrible argument that has been terrible since Magic started. There are also dozens of awesome ways to stop Skullclamp in almost all colors and at 2 or less mana. In fact, the same goes for almost every card in all of Magic: Counterspells stop anything! This does not mean that some cards are not just too broken for their ability to randomly win if a specific answer is not immediately drawn.
3) Just because a deck can easily splash a combo, does not mean the combo pieces should be banned
Skullclamp disagrees. Here is a quote from the June 4 article about Skullclamp’s banning:
“Let’s talk about Standard first. Skullclamp was banned in Standard, frankly, because it was everywhere. Every competitive deck either had four in the main deck, had four in the sideboard, or was built to try and defend against it. And there were a lot more successful decks in the first two categories than in the third. Such representation is completely unhealthy for the format. Your deck has to either have Skullclamps, or have Skullclamp in its crosshairs—a definitive case of a card “warping the metagame.””
Now, no one is saying that Dark Depths is as criminally overpowered as Skullclamp. But does it warp metagames? That is another question entirely. This is definitely a matter that testing can answer, and one that should not be speculated about.
In the end, my concern comes down to one thing. Will Dark Depths make the metagame unfun? This is my only worry. I do not hate combo and combo pieces, and I do not want to stifle format creativity. But my fear is that Dark Depths will become part of some nasty deck strategy (or strategies) that just splashes for the alternate win condition.
If it must be on a watchlist, then that is fine. But banning is safer, in this case, than leaving it free.
-ktkenshinx-
Just saying this here, since there’s no forum still. Overextended sound bad and make this feel like a “derivative” format while it’s not. I’d open a poll for readers to submit an alternative vote. I’d suggest Renaissance (the restauration after the dark ages of magic aka the reserved list, but still not modern)
A year ago, when Evan Erwin first suggested Overextended as the working name for the format, I was strongly in favor of Renaissance as the format’s name. The main argument that people raised against me was that Renaissance was the name of a failed Chronicles expansion (Which is particularly ironic because the reason we have the Reserve List at all is because of this reprinting disaster).
I agree that the format needs a new name asap, and I agree that the best place to discuss this is a forum. Gavin is working on that forum and I am confident that the forum will be up and running very soon.
We could, however, start brainstorming potential names right now. Overextended is a bad name if, for no other reason, it affiliates us with Extended , a much loathed format for the past 4 years. Here are some alternatives?
-Renaissance
-Heritage
-Contemporary
-ktkenshinx-
Contemporary sound too similar to Modern imho. Heritage seems fine, but i still prefer how Renaissance sounds and the implications of the name. Heritage don’t have the “after something” connotation Renaissance has, it seems kinda like Legacy.
Obviously this is just imho, i’m not even a native english speaker.
Hmm this format seem very good for the people who to my play group. I have a question. Will the new cards from Commander be legal ?
Keep in mind these are synonyms that are close and further away from the words legacy and vintage
Superior
Honored
Birthright – its odd but has a kind of cool sense to it.
Heirloom
Ancestry
Antiquity- I know it sounds like the set antiquities but I like it.
Lineage
Remembrance
Tradition or Traditional
Remnant- particularly interesting since these sets are everything left after legacy and vintage.
Classic or Classical
Champion
Decree
Balanced or Balance
Originate or Origin
When it comes to Dredge, why not just ban Golgari Grave Troll and Breakthrough. Those two give Dredge is explosiveness and without them its a manageable, yet existent archetype. If it is still degenerate ban careful study. With these bans you’ve taken away either its explosiveness or its resiliency. Losing Bridge and/or Narc would probably straight kill the deck, or at least leave at tier 3 at best.
Ichorid (the pre-future sight version of dredge) was still a highly competitive deck before bridge and narcomoeba came along. It’d still be good without them. Just not so busted that everyone has to dedicate half their sideboard to it.
@Johndoe1134:
Banning GGT only slows the deck down by 1 dredge per turn, which means that in some games, it will be too slow by a turn or two, but in other games, it will not matter and it will be just as absurdly explosive. After all, the main way that Dredge generates its raw power is from Dread Return and Bridge From Below. The latter is probably the most degenerate and outrageous, and it is also the card that most feels like cheating. More importantly, to my knowledge, it only has a place in Dredge. Banning it only hurts the problem deck without hurting other development ideas.
re: Format Name
Renaissance is definitely my favorite name, and it has been so for over a year. It’s not a particular unique or special name; it was the name of a past expansion set (Chronicles/Renaissance), it was proposed as a Legacy format name (2002), and it has been used to start at least a few homespun formats. That said, it is an awesome name that truly explains what we are about.
The biggest problem with the name, and I don’t think it’s a dealbreaker by any means, is its relationship with Chronicles and the Reserve List. Here is an article that explains the situation:
http://www.wizards.com/magic/generic/cardlists/Ren_Fr_Ger.html
And here is a particularly illuminating quote from the article:
“Our policy instructs that we not print cards in white-border sets that didn’t previously appear in either the original black-border Magic: The Gathering set in that language or in some black-border expansion set of that language. For example, the initial set for German and French is the same set as the RevisedTM (third edition) set and the first German and French cards were released with black borders. Since there were no previous German or French expansions, the cards rotated into Magic: The Gathering–Fourth EditionTM , according to our policy, had to have first appeared with a black border before Fourth Edition could be printed with a white border. ”
Sound familiar? That’s the policy that CREATED the Reserve List in the first place. It could be ugly if we explicitly affiliated ourselves with a set that caused the whole Reserve List problem to begin with. This is especially problematic because we are trying to distance ourselves from this horrible List.
That said, Renaissance is an obscure piece of Magic history, and not everyone knows about it. Also, even those that do know about it might be able to forgive us for using it as a name, because the word is so strong.
Either way, this is definitely a historical point to consider in naming the format. I vote strongly in favor of Renaissance, and hope that the dialogue on this format will continue.
-ktkenshinx-
@ktkenshinx
The Type 1.5 format was able to aquire the name Legacy despite its negative connotations with Urza’s Legacy, a set full of broken cards and mechanics. That set contained the only the card ever emergency banned in all of Magic, yet Wizards had no problem adopting Legacy as the format’s name.
Renaissance is a cool piece of Magic’s history, and is only tangentially related to the Reserve List. Its primary function was to get Revised staples into the European market; honestly, that’s a good thing, regardless of the Reserve List tie-ins. In time, any semblance of a connection will probably be forgotten. I think there is a high probability that if the community wants “Renaissance”, they could get it.
@Tyrodium:
I totally agree that Renaissance is capable of escaping its negative connotations. But I also don’t think the Legacy/Urza’s Legacy comparison is apt, just because the set wasn’t actually the same name as the format. I remember when Legacy was announced as a contender for the T 1.5 format, and I remember the talk on the forums. To my knowledge, there was no argument about Urza’s Legacy being too similar to Legacy. No one brought up that the name was evocative of the powerful Urza’s “Legacy” format.
But Renaissance is a different story. Everywhere the format name is mentioned, SOMEONE brings up that it is reminiscent of the old Chronicles/Renaissance sets. I personally think that this is totally irrelevant. I personally stand 100% by Renaissance as a title for the Overextended format. But the problem does need to be addressed. Unlike the Legacy/Urza’s Legacy problem, Renaissance/Renaissance is repeatedly brought up on forums. We just need to present convincing arguments about why it doesn’t matter.
-ktkenshinx-
@ ktkenshinx
You’re right, the comparison is not 100% analogous. What’s strange is that I had the exact opposite reaction of what you’re describing, as I personally instantly connected Urza’s Legacy/Legacy when I first heard the announcement, and didn’t connect Renaissance and Chronicles/Renaissance. Though I’m strange like that.
My anecdotal experiences aside, I personally really like both Overextended and Renaissance as names. They both feel right to me, and capture a pretty nice slice of Magic’s flavor. I also agree that any potential connections of the names is largely irrelevant and not meaningful in any way.
One think to consider, is that both the format and Renaissance do have some thematic elements that are similar. Both want to broaden Magic’s reach while appealing to newer players. They both can also serve as a vessel for the game. And they were designed to help make this game more affordable for those whose interest is already sparked. There are some interesting similarities there.
Lastly, I don’t think Wizards (or players for that matter) should be too concerned over any connection that a format name might have to set. This is the company, remember, that was willing to name an entire block (Time Spiral) after a card that was banned. If Wizards wasn’t worried that Time Spiral’s legacy would stain their block after seven years, I doubt they would be too concerned over a 15 year old foreign only set cuasing any significant harm.
Wizards cares so much about intuitiveness, what’s more intuitive than:
“Hey what are you playing?”
“Oh this? This is Magic’s Renaissance.”
Bridge should be the only thing that sees the ban list if anything at all. I don’t really agree since we have Crypt that was time spiraled, ravenous trap, nihil spellbomb, faerie macabre, extirpate, surgical extraction and relic of progenitus to name a a gaggle. Dredge only takes a few slots in top 16′s in legacy here and there because hate is so easily accessible. It has its low and high tides like any viable deck. We already saw with this first tournament that the Dark depths boogeyman was overstated like and I guarantee a well prepared field would do the same to dredge. I don’t see what the issue would be if dredge takes 25% of tops 16′s every once in a while. It gets hated out and disappears for long periods of time.
Renaissance does sound pretty good. Anyone that would veto a format name because of an obscure connection like that shouldn’t be playing magic, they should be writing online encyclopedias. I still like the sound of Honored, Antiquity, and Lineage.
I think Cranial Plating would be a better ban than Disciple in affinity. In legacy, the affinity lists usually run 4 Cranial Plating and even Stoneforge to tutor it, it’s such an important card.
Some affinity in legacy even cut Disciple, so I don’t think he needs the ban
Only 12 affinity decks have been run the last month. 4 of them made top 8, thats 33%. Compare that to elves; 7 elves decks were run 3 made top 8, thats 47%. I think a turn 4 emrakul is just as bad as a 4 turn tezzeret, or crainal plating turn 2 givnig the opponent two turns to remove the creature. Elves have won numerous legacy events as well, so to say “well it wins in legacy” seems to be a mute arugument. I will admit losing to affinity feels worse than losing to elves, but the win percentages show there definitely need no banning. The Magic league had 3 affinity decks and none made top 8.
***moot
Everyone expected affinity to be top dog, so they fitted their decks for it. Elves is always a rough matchup in any format that resembles old extended. But if they do keep arcbound ravager and cranial plating around, at least ban the artifact lands. They are way too powerful and allow way too early of kills and gives affinity way too powerful of a start.
What about the cards legal for Commander? I would like to see if things like Flusterstorm or Chaos Warp are going to be legal.
The Commander promo cards are not legal. For more information, check out this article: http://mtgoverextended.com/?p=401. :)
No ban hammer on. Anything in Tezz Affinity. Anything that can win in legacy should be slowed somewhat in over extended.
Affinity has had hardly any top 8s, Tezz affinity won dallas because affinity has a favorable match up against merfolk. Merfolk is already one of the most played legacy decks, and after edison when high tide exploded merfolk was one of the few decks that could interact with it. So tezz affintiy did not win because it is the best deck in legacy, but because it took advantage of a metagame loop hole.
Skullclamp….. don’t you think Myrsmith and Skullclamp could be broken, kind of a Tin Man’s version of Glimpse of Nature for Elves. Thank god Sword of the Meek is banned, it, clamp and thopter foundry would be insane, toss in Grand Architect to tap the thopters for mana and kaboom.
quick question, why is sword banned. this format probably has enough disruption to keep that combo in check. they haven korosan grip, vindicate, extirpate, malestrome pulse . and then randome artifact removal. i think that you could unban sword and it will be fine. I have learned from playing the combo in legacy that as long as you can put a really fast clock on me and then are able to beat the combo you could probably win. this formate is much closser to legacy than it is the old extended format and should probably be treated as such. also with stoneforge in the format it will probably make the two combos go into different decks.
Ill pass on this format
Aether Vial definitely makes it harder for control decks to get along. I am debating about playing it myself, but wondering whether it’s viable in a mono black build. There are certainly times when you’d rather spend it on a spell than a creature, and Vial lets you have both.
I’m a little confused. I’ve seen info supporting both starts at Mercadian Masques and Invasion. Can you please give me an official wizard statement that says which block this format starts???
There is no official Wizards statement on any new eternal format. Wizards has discussed that they want to support a new eternal format, but the final form of it has not yet been decided. Wizards tested “Modern” in the Community Cup in June, a format from Mirrodin/8th Edition onward. Modern, however, was only a test and experiment, and Wizards has made NO official announcements regarding its success/failure.
Overextended is currently a player supported format, much in the same way that Elder Dragon Highlander and Type 1.5 were initially player supported formats back in the day. Overextended is a unique vision of the new eternal format that starts at Invasion block/7th Edition and goes on to the present day. (There have been discussions about a Masques vs. Invasion cutoff, but right now the cutoff is at Invasion). As a player run format, Overextended has had considerable success at MTGO and store events, which will hopefully set it apart from Modern.
Wizards is looking for community feedback to drive a final decision on an eternal format. Overextended could be that new format, or Modern could. Nothing has been decided, so we players can have a huge part in helping Wizards make the proper decision.
-ktkenshinx-
could the commander cards be added to overextended
In short, no.
They aren’t part of the regular release of sets. If the commander cards were allowed, there would be arguments to include the From the Vaulst sets, and that would be horrendous. (I know, slippery slope argument and such, but this is just a simple way of making the point.)
If it’s not in a core set or block since Invasion, it’s not going to be legal.
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